Replies: 3 comments 6 replies
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Hi @SSWMC , thank you for the question! I haven't fully processed it yet, but just wanted to say I'll work on thinking through this and hope to have an answer for you later today. |
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Hi @SSWMC, Thanks again for discussing this and for your thorough investigation of what is happening here. Fundamentally, as you point out, this comes down to a question of whether the (combined) velocity reduction should be applied to the free stream flow or the inflow at the turbine location. I think it’s worth pointing out here that both of these are modeling choices, and both are “wrong” in the sense that they requiring “combining” individual turbine wakes, which of course, in reality, are not separate entities. In FLORIS, we currently have three combination methods implemented: “FLS”, “SOSFS”, and “Max”. “FLS” stands for “freestream linear superposition”, and thus the deficit is applied to the free stream velocity (not the current turbine’s inflow velocity). Similarly, “SOSFS” is the “sum of squares freestream superposition” model. Finally, in the docstring for the “max” method, it is stated that the deficit is added to the “base flow field”. So, the truth is, all combination models currently implemented in FLORIS are (explicitly) “free stream” deficit models. I believe the prior discussion that you are referring to is #948 (but please correct me if that’s not what you meant---#817, #1070, #1065, and #988 also cover wake superposition). When you say that
are you quoting one of the papers you mentioned (Zong and Porté-Agel, 2020 and Qian and Ishihara, 2021), or perhaps from your own studies? I briefly looked over the papers again and didn’t see that statement. I’m not disagreeing; perhaps that is “more correct”; but I just wanted to see what evidence we have to this effect. EDIT: I see now that in Section 2.2 of Qian and Ishihara, 2021), the authors choose to use the "Rotor-based linear sum" method based on prior work by Niayifar and Porté-Agel (2016), which I believe is the method you are proposing here. Is that correct? Now, although as I pointed out above, the current combination methods in FLORIS are all applied to the free stream velocity, that doesn’t mean that this is the best model. I’m certainly happy to support you implementing a new model that uses the turbine inflow velocities, especially if you have data to support that being an improvement over the existing (free stream) methods! In terms of the behavior you are seeing that certain turbines can produce zero power (and zero wake): this is expected. If the inflow wind speed at any turbine drops below the cut-in wind speed for the turbine, it will produce zero power, zero thrust, and therefore no wake (this will occur if the inflow velocity is negative, which as you say, is not reflective of reality but can occur in certain models, especially in the near wake, or if the inflow velocity is positive but still below the cut-in speed for the turbine). A final point I’ll make here is that we are in discussions to make user-provided models easier to implement. This will allow users to replace the entire solver (velocity deficit, deflection, turbulence intensity, and combination model) with something of their own design. This is still a while away, if it does every come, but I think it would help users such as yourself implement their own “changes” to the underlying solver without having to go in and change the FLORIS code. Let me know if you think this would be useful to you. Hopefully this makes sense and I understood your question---please feel free to correct me if I didn’t! Best, |
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Hi @SSWMC , @paulf81 brought up a good point to add to the discussion here (this one leaning more in favor of using the free stream, rather than the turbine inflow velocity, I think, but really just something to think about). Far downstream of a wind turbine, we expect the flow to recover to the free stream velocity, not to the velocity of the last turbine. So, let's let turbine In contrast, the free stream version (1.1) maintains that the individual wake component As we've already agreed, both are "wrong" because individual wake components don't really exist, but an argument could be made that it "feels more correct" for an individual wake component to itself return to the free stream velocity, rather than to the inflow velocity of the turbine that generated the wake component. (1.3) seems to treat the flow as having a special property exactly at the rotor locations, such that wake components revert to that flow state, whereas (1.1) treats Food for thought! I do think it could be interesting to see how using rotor inflow velocities changes the results we get from FLORIS---my guess is that likely, the wake models themselves would need some recalibration to "balance" the change (but the wake models are hardly perfect themselves, and often benefit from recalibration to specific circumstances). |




Hi @SSWMC ,
@paulf81 brought up a good point to add to the discussion here (this one leaning more in favor of using the free stream, rather than the turbine inflow velocity, I think, but really just something to think about).
Far downstream of a wind turbine, we expect the flow to recover to the free stream velocity, not to the velocity of the last turbine. So, let's let turbine$i$ be in the last row of the farm (such that it is operating inside a wake, i.e. $u_i^0 < U_\infty$ ). Then, according to the model (1.3) from Zong and Porté-Agel, the "wake loss" from this turbine is $u_i^0 - u_w^i(x,y,z)$ ---that is, the "wake" of turbine $i$ is defined as a deficit below $u_i^0$ (and assuming…