Cross-Project-Communication and community: Creation of Mailinglists? #69
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@jdittrich maybe I'm not understanding what you're describing. In *this* repo
https://github.com/opensourcedesign/organization it is a
conversation by OSD about itself- so maybe that's your comment
When we talk here, we are mainly concerned with *our* organization, less with
actual design problems from other projects.
The https://github.com/opensourcedesign/jobs repo has lots of
conversations between designers and other projects. Are you unaware this
going on or does it not resemble the problem you are talking about? If it's
the former, you need to "subscribe" to the repo to get notified (by email)
of conversations.
Can we create a/some mailinglists for that purpose?
I don't think traditional mailing lists make sense for OSD and the fact our
repos are already providing mailing lists of sorts and
* We would add a channel to our infrastructure
Yah, another *email* based channel, but it would lower the barrier of
needing to create a Github account.
I just setup a Lounge instance (decently
friendly web IRC client) so people can login / or leave their account idling.
The Lounge is a fork of **Shout** which I had been working on the https://github.com/opensourcedesign/slick theme,
which I was aiming to bring closer to Slack and should resume
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I am aware of the repo, but only a few things of what I exchange about with other UX designers or researchers are "Jobs". Recently, I asked or answered (on other lists) how people do remote interviews, how one can analyze interviews in LibreOffice. I may want to ask if there is a good open video editor to edit screen records from my research or how a designer can involve developers. Those I can open github issues on that, but… |
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I may want to ask if there is a good open video editor to edit screen
records from my research or how a designer can involve developers.
Ok. I did misunderstood.
a) People who join need a developer-y github-account and can't say: "cool, I try that".
True. Mailmain (and mailing lists in general) are also an exclusive user
demographic.
b) I have doubt that issues are good for things that don't have a
definition of done.
This was an intentional choice from when I started creating all the repos.
Your question above is a great question, but isn't it better to collect things
like this on http://opensourcedesign.net/resources/ than have them
buried (or simply only communicated by a few people) in a mail archive?
Of course there are questions that won't fit into that page (or elsewhere),
but as far as "general discussion" with all the open source projects- do we
want to encourage that?
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If the chat room gets a bit more juice, wouldn't that be a good venue for asking these kinds of questions? I've found that with matrix scroll back and such is a much smaller problem. |
True, too. But they are a standard tool for communication and used by non-programmers too (at least in the form of google/yahoo groups). Thus, exclusive, yes (what is not) but known to work for many who are not us.
Unlikely. I (and most other people I know) write stuff like "Adding to Alice’s post above, I’d like to suggest to try LibreOffice Writer to do Y. Read paper X, which walks you through the basics. " on Mailinglists – that would not be a resource one would add to the page.
I dislike them for such discussions (single threaded!), but they seem to work for some. I ’m not saying that a mailinglist is the ideal way but I am concerned that the non-standard solutions we pursue can be pretty tricky for newcomers and/or peripheral participants (e.g. interested in OSD, but not taking part in org discussions like logo choice, venue selection etc.). |
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"Adding to Alice’s post above, I’d like to suggest to try LibreOffice Writer
to do Y. Read paper X, which walks you through the basics.
You're right that's not a "resource" but you might be missing my point- why
not create a "Tips" page (repo) on the website as it's still helpful info :)
I dislike them for such discussions (single threaded!), but they seem to
work for some.
Good point. Single threaded is a short coming. Both chat & email also have the
shortcoming of high signal to noise for hearing the question / finding the
answer later like "Try LibreOffice Writer to do..."
If what you want is an official OSD channel for "general discussion" which is
inclusive to people not comfortable with creating a Github account, but are
curious about OSD and prefer email, OK.
Personally, I don't think OSD should host such a forum. I'm having a hard
enough time keeping with up with things and some barriers to entry are useful.
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We specifically decided against mailing lists in the beginning because they have several problems:
This is why we chose Github issues. This platform also gets people used to the space where developers and open source projects usually work. Sure, we could additionally set up something like Discourse – but that would essentially be used for the same thing that we use Github issues for, and just spread our channels thin. |
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Whatever we choose, GitHub Issues, Mailing Lists, Discourse or anything else, will always have a barrier of involvement for a specific demographic, as these all cater to slightly different audiences. And since we have to reside with one solution, we can probably never fix this problem to its full extent. One solution might be offering [email protected] for people who might be scared of GitHub but want to ask questions anyway. That is if we want to attract designers with no open source background. We can also do whatcanidoforosd.net which basically gives you contribution suggestions on how one can contribute at OSD. Check out: |
agree, that are good points.
Sometimes directly doing something is not the point – if I ask for advice on a problem or different views, there is not necessary something to be done, finished or to be finally resolved. This does not mean it is »banter«.
Good point. Recently, I was talking with the people who ran openusability (@guiguru, @bbalazs ) and reading some interesting discussions on mailinglists on design research/usability recently. I am unsure what can be done to improve opensourcedesign for people gearing more to the conceptual/research-y spectrum of design. The mailinglist was merely a proposed way (and I share the views of the problems they entail and I can gladly close the suggestion); the actual challenge for me would be of how to exchange across projects and about problems that are not necessarily "resolvable". |
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@elioqoshi that’s why we need a better »Get involved« page – see #54 |
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I have tried to outline the nature of OSD's communication needs in the following diagram. It only takes a short leap of logic from here to see that GitHub issues really does not suit the kinds of discussion that designers have. A few things to note:
Here is the current state of play. The next steps are to:
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hey everybody, peter sikking from openUsability here. what @studiospring contributes above is really impressive (I do not get to say that very often). I am pretty sure @jdittrich’s original topic is about a designer community where we get to support each other on a moral level, as in: “I saw your outcry of project frustration [there needs to be a place for that]. don’t let the developers bully you. now is the moment you set an ultimatum.” a designer who is not on a project is, ehm, not a designer on the project. this severely limits the problem-solving capabilities of this designer—to the point of being just another innocent bystander. one exception I see to this is a mentoring relationship, whether long-term or ad hoc, senior to junior. design is: 1) a structured process; 2) a specification; 3) shipped results. any component missing: it is not design. 2) is crucial for getting to 3). thus designer to developer work is not built on ideas—ideas are a dime a dozen—but on a specified solution, that is refined as feedback comes in. being a designer is being a translator between the conflicting parties (product, users, tech); the spec is where translation for tech (developers ) is done. I would really like to see this to have an important role in the orange box (Collaborative Design and Development Environment) above. |
Also that. I was thinking along the lines of a "community of practice": Of which "how do I deal with that conflict?" is as much part as "I tried paper prototyping recently, here are my pros and cons so far!" or "I want to provide a coded mock, can so help with CSS?" Such a community of practice I would see in groups like Anthrodesign and also here in OSD – my intention was not saying we don't have communication in the sense of a community of practice but to strengthen it. @studiospring Thanks for the visualizations! |
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Kind words indeed, @guiguru. I suspect a Collaborative Design & Development Environment will remain a dream until we understand the systemic issues (described briefly here as the value exchange system) preventing its creation/adoption. Even then, open source designers alone may not have the resources to tip the value exchange system in the users' favour. The first step? More research! Watch this space! To get back on topic (!) though, I would like to see this kind of discussion done in a discussion forum and leave GH Issues for the code issues that it was intended for. |
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Does an online discussion forum (like Discourse) or a listserv fix the problems that GitHub has? Is there there a real difference between a discussion forum and the issues on a GitHub repository except for naming? Naming could be a significant reason as so much of our interaction is based framing, but I don't know if switching from GitHub to an other (currently suggested) web based forum will alleviate or fix our problems. @studiospring that research and diagramming is excellent. Thank you so much for doing that. I think both you and @jdittrich are getting at a core issue with OSD - that we're catering to developers who want more design, rather than designers who want to work on open source. I don't know what the fix for that is. |
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@simonv3 I think the bottom diagram makes clear that there are platforms for (open source) developers to discuss and collaborate, but there are none for designers or for designer-dev collaboration. We are using GH Issues for something it wasn't intended for. Personally, I think the differences between a discussion forum and GH Issues is more than semantics. Here are just a few problems with Issues that could be fixed immediately with almost any decent forum:
I do not think moving to a forum will alienate developers, especially if it is integrated with GitHub (Discourse, hint, hint). A designer-dev collaboration tool is, of course, a whole other beast. |
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Take these responses with a grain of salt - I don't think GitHub is perfect for what we're doing.
Here's the thing: to me a huge part of Open Source Design is that people try the things that they think they want to try. If someone sets up a Discourse forum for us to use, and it takes off, then wahay, that's great. I'll create an account and participate right away. Don't rely on others to do the work for you though because people only have so much time they can contribute. Would creating a Discourse forum also solve #48 - handling small UX jobs? Would it allow for better communication for local meetups #58? Would it be possible to have a sub-forum for all the OSD conversation so that it is easy to find and in one place #62 #64 #65 #66? What about niche conversation groups (like UX, research, etc). I think the question is probably yes to all of the above. |
I also think decoupling OSD from GH is also a good thing. Regarding your other comments, I am happy to put in some work (for now). Consider this the research phase (and we need 2000 stars for free Discourse hosting)! |
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Perhaps setting up a general "Discussion" repo will help (for now) to meet
@jdittrich original question? Otherwise, i'm all for experimentation- if enough
of you want a Discourse instance for OSD, someone should go set one up :)
1. This is what GH looks like for me (quick test in browser).
@studiospring that's not the mobile version of Github. Maybe, something's wonky
with your mobile device / browser?
2. SEO is important for designers who do not know about open source or GH
I'd rather see our *website* become rich in content, have good design and SEO-
not expect GitHub issues to come up in search engines. Making a great dynamic
website has always been a big part of what I've wanted OSD to become.
...a regular forum is a lower barrier to entry for non-OS, non-developer
designers than asking them to sign in to a developers' "development platform".
There's a strong argument that designers congregate on visual platforms and
don't feel comfortable on text based forums. As per the diagram of
"Project Agnostic" designer platforms here's some:
- Dribble - https://dribbble.com
- Behance - https://www.behance.net
- Forrst - http://zurb.com/forrst (kinda defunct)
I also think decoupling OSD from GH is also a good thing.
Yes! The *how* is crucial. IMHO this should be done carefully and not
require entire "island-like" platforms like Discourse. I've started a
separate issue as this is bigger discussion than just "a forum for discussion"
with my proposed path towards this goal:
#73
Regarding your other comments, I am happy to put in some work (for now).
Consider this the research phase
@studiospring great :D Are you developer- back-end, front-end? Or more of a
designer?
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Thanks for putting it in concise words. Sadly, I don’t know the solution either, but it is important to keep that perspective in mind :-) |
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@bnvk You're right, for some reason, GH is not responsive on my Firefox, but is on Chromium. Apologies for the confusion.
I'm not sure what you mean by this. It seems Discourse, or any other forum can be integrated in to an existing site. I started in front end, then back end, now UX designer. |
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+1
With respect: the essences can be quite different.
In my experience: Discourse can fix, negate or – most often, prevent ninety-nine percent of such problems. +1
Almost certainly yes. There's great praise for Discourse. From me:
– that one thing in 2016 was Discourse (but with the peculiarities of Twitter, the relevant tweet is no longer found). By near coincidence – I was unaware of Open Source Design when I began this topic:
For countless reasons, my strongest recommendation is to use Discourse for discussions. Good point. Is it necessary to manually calculate the sum of the separate counts of stars at https://github.com/opensourcedesign or am I looking in the wrong place? |
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Just seen this http://uid8app.com |
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@m1guelpf: Thanks for posting. Is this an opensource tool and/or a communication platform? |
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@jdittrich I don't think so, sorry. |
From the Welcome to Open Source Design at https://github.com/opensourcedesign/opensourcedesign.github.io/blob/master/CONTRIBUTING.md, these six points can help with a round of decision-making:
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This overview of how many activists groups are organizing seemed really relevant to me: http://civichall.org/civicist/movements-organize-now-notes-challenges-rapid-growth/ |
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These Meta Discussions are really great but I think it's getting quite a bit out of hands to follow :D What do you think? |
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I’d love to discuss those at a summit or meeting; however, I would not discourage having the discussions online, too (Dont know if that is what you would suggest). |
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Yeah, I think we can do both? I haven't seen as much life in OSD as we've had since we started these meta discussions :) |
Will the date be added to opensourcedesign/events#49 (comment) or is there another calendar? Something I saw this week (I can no longer find it) made me wonder whether there's already a CalDAV service for something related to OSD. |
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Big thanks @simonv3 for adding the link to opensourcedesign/events#49. I did seek nextcloud before asking the question but
Yeah! I'd like to add some things that are relevant to this issue but right now I'm suffering from GitHub horror Postscript: now, that search result does find what's required. But I swear, it didn't work for me a few minutes ago and I certainly did search the organisation for nextcloud stuff before my previous post. GitHub just makes my head spin sometimes. Sorry. Rant over. Re #79, for anyone who is curious:
Retrospective, and work in progressFor a moment, consider #17 (2015-11-20) – there's a respectable open channel of communication that seems to be unused. (Note, please, that I'm not singling out 17 for special attention. In the context of this issue 69, I offer 17 simply as an example of something that had impetus then somehow stalled.) Fast forward from 2015, to the present: for an open source design forum to be a useful channel of communication – complementing (not complicating) things for users who are accustomed to GitHub – there will, I think, be value in presenting a reasonably good first impression to the OSD community and to the public. The private work in progress should be complete within a few days … I guess, Wednesday 12th April at the latest. Thanks for your patience :-) |
Use Case
Problem:
Possible Solution:
Can we create a/some mailinglists for that purpose?
Possible Challanges:
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