Minutes for 2024-09-18.

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+      <h1>The W3C JSON-LD Community Group</h1>
+      <h3><a href="../">Go Back</a></h3>
+
+      <hr>
+      <p><img src="https://www.w3.org/Icons/w3c_home" alt="W3C Logo" /></p><div><div><div class="container"><div class="row"><div class="col-md-8 col-md-offset-2"><h1>JSON-LD CG</h1>
+<h2>Minutes for 2024-09-18</h2>
+<div class="summary">
+<dl>
+<dt>Present</dt><dd><a href="http://greggkellogg.net/home/about/">Gregg Kellogg</a>, <a href="https://json-ld.org/">Anatoly Scherbakov</a>, <a href="https://www.linkedin.com/in/benjaminyoung/">Benjamin Young</a>, <a href="https://json-ld.org/">Pierre-Antoine Champin</a></dd>
+<dt>Chair(s)</dt><dd>Gregg Kellogg</dd>
+<dt>Scribe(s)</dt><dd>Gregg Kellogg, Benjamin Young</dd>
+<dt>Agenda</dt><dd><a href="https://www.w3.org/events/meetings/08563546-30fd-497a-ac16-77f96e96e8c0/20240918T120000/">https://www.w3.org/events/meetings/08563546-30fd-497a-ac16-77f96e96e8c0/20240918T120000/</a></dd>
+<dt>Topics</dt><dd><ol><li><a href="#topic-1">TPAC Preparation</a><li><a href="#topic-2">JSON-LD-star presentation https://json-ld.github.io/w3c-tpac-2024-presentations/json-ld-star/</a></ol></dd></dl>
+</div>
+<div class="information">Gregg Kellogg is scribing.</div>
+<h1 onmouseout="$('#link-topic-1').hide()" onmouseover="$('#link-topic-1').show()" id="topic-1" class="topic">
+Topic: TPAC Preparation
+<a id="link-topic-1" style="display:none;" href="#topic-1">✪</a></h1>
+<div onmouseout="$('#link-1').hide()" onmouseover="$('#link-1').show()" id="1" class="comment"><span class="name">Pierre-Antoine Champin</span>: Will be a little late, sorry <a id="link-1" style="display:none;" href="#1">✪</a></div>
+<div onmouseout="$('#link-2').hide()" onmouseover="$('#link-2').show()" id="2" class="comment"><span class="name">Benjamin Young</span>:  I think we have the slides we need for the BOF. <a id="link-2" style="display:none;" href="#2">✪</a></div>
+<div class="comment-continuation">... [shows slide deck]</div>
+<div onmouseout="$('#link-3').hide()" onmouseover="$('#link-3').show()" id="3" class="comment"><span class="name">Benjamin Young</span>: <a href="https://json-ld.github.io/w3c-tpac-2024-presentations/json-ld-recharter/">https://json-ld.github.io/w3c-tpac-2024-presentations/json-ld-recharter/</a> <a id="link-3" style="display:none;" href="#3">✪</a></div>
+<div class="comment-continuation">... This presentation focuses on CBOR-LD and YAML-LD along with language patterns.</div>
+<div class="comment-continuation">... Has bar codes based on JSON-LD and CBOR-LD to show the dramatic size difference.</div>
+<div class="comment-continuation">... Needs YAML-LD content from anatoly-scherbakov</div>
+<div onmouseout="$('#link-4').hide()" onmouseover="$('#link-4').show()" id="4" class="comment"><span class="name">Anatoly Scherbakov</span>:  I haven&apos;t had a chance to look at the slide repository. I&apos;ll get them soon. <a id="link-4" style="display:none;" href="#4">✪</a></div>
+<div onmouseout="$('#link-5').hide()" onmouseover="$('#link-5').show()" id="5" class="comment"><span class="name">Benjamin Young</span>:  Our presentation time is 14:00 PDT. <a id="link-5" style="display:none;" href="#5">✪</a></div>
+<div class="comment-continuation">... On Wednesday the 25th.</div>
+<div class="comment-continuation">... We have joint sessions Monday, Tuesday, and Thursday as well as a dedicated session on Thursday.</div>
+<div class="comment-continuation">... Not sure what the agenda for the Spacial Web meeting is.</div>
+<div class="comment-continuation">... You can present YAML-LD on Thursday, but I was hoping to have them for the Wednesday meeting.</div>
+<div onmouseout="$('#link-6').hide()" onmouseover="$('#link-6').show()" id="6" class="comment"><span class="name">Benjamin Young</span>: <a href="https://www.w3.org/2024/09/TPAC/breakouts.html#grid">https://www.w3.org/2024/09/TPAC/breakouts.html#grid</a> <a id="link-6" style="display:none;" href="#6">✪</a></div>
+<div onmouseout="$('#link-7').hide()" onmouseover="$('#link-7').show()" id="7" class="comment"><span class="name">Benjamin Young</span>: <a href="https://www.w3.org/events/meetings/ff83b490-7df3-4faf-89b4-6069da41c976/">https://www.w3.org/events/meetings/ff83b490-7df3-4faf-89b4-6069da41c976/</a> <a id="link-7" style="display:none;" href="#7">✪</a></div>
+<div class="comment-continuation">... Subscribe to the event, and it will add it to your calendar.</div>
+<div class="comment-continuation">... TPAC registration deals with regular WG meetings, the breakout needs to be added separately.</div>
+<div onmouseout="$('#link-8').hide()" onmouseover="$('#link-8').show()" id="8" class="comment"><span class="name">Anatoly Scherbakov</span>:  That time will be 03:00 my time, but I want to join the meeting. <a id="link-8" style="display:none;" href="#8">✪</a></div>
+<div onmouseout="$('#link-9').hide()" onmouseover="$('#link-9').show()" id="9" class="comment"><span class="name">Benjamin Young</span>:  My expectation is that the audience either knows or are interested in JSON-LD. <a id="link-9" style="display:none;" href="#9">✪</a></div>
+<div class="comment-continuation">... We&apos;ll discuss CBOR in both the breakout and group session.</div>
+<div onmouseout="$('#link-10').hide()" onmouseover="$('#link-10').show()" id="10" class="comment"><span class="name">Anatoly Scherbakov</span>:  So, you&apos;re preparing two presentations: one for the breakout and the other for the group meeting. <a id="link-10" style="display:none;" href="#10">✪</a></div>
+<div onmouseout="$('#link-11').hide()" onmouseover="$('#link-11').show()" id="11" class="comment"><span class="name">Benjamin Young</span>:  Focus of group meeting will be on re-chartering. <a id="link-11" style="display:none;" href="#11">✪</a></div>
+<div class="comment-continuation">... what we need to do to transition, and finalize for a vote.</div>
+<div class="comment-continuation">... With remaining time, we can look into remaining issues.</div>
+<div class="comment-continuation">... Left over joint meeting time may be hard to redirect to focused group issues.</div>
+<div onmouseout="$('#link-12').hide()" onmouseover="$('#link-12').show()" id="12" class="comment"><span class="name">Anatoly Scherbakov</span>:  I&apos;ll get a PR for the slides done in the next couple of days. <a id="link-12" style="display:none;" href="#12">✪</a></div>
+<div onmouseout="$('#link-13').hide()" onmouseover="$('#link-13').show()" id="13" class="comment"><span class="name">Benjamin Young</span>:  Feel free to just email them into me. <a id="link-13" style="display:none;" href="#13">✪</a></div>
+<div class="comment-continuation">... Breakout should have just an example of YAML-LD.</div>
+<div onmouseout="$('#link-14').hide()" onmouseover="$('#link-14').show()" id="14" class="comment"><span class="name">Anatoly Scherbakov</span>:  Do we expect that OWL might be discussed at TPAC? <a id="link-14" style="display:none;" href="#14">✪</a></div>
+<div onmouseout="$('#link-15').hide()" onmouseover="$('#link-15').show()" id="15" class="comment"><span class="name">Pierre-Antoine Champin</span>: OWLs are not what they seem <a id="link-15" style="display:none;" href="#15">✪</a></div>
+<div onmouseout="$('#link-16').hide()" onmouseover="$('#link-16').show()" id="16" class="comment"><span class="name">Gregg Kellogg</span>:  Possibly some discussion of OWL in RDF-star meetings. <a id="link-16" style="display:none;" href="#16">✪</a></div>
+<h1 onmouseout="$('#link-topic-2').hide()" onmouseover="$('#link-topic-2').show()" id="topic-2" class="topic">
+Topic: JSON-LD-star presentation <a href="https://json-ld.github.io/w3c-tpac-2024-presentations/json-ld-star/">https://json-ld.github.io/w3c-tpac-2024-presentations/json-ld-star/</a>
+<a id="link-topic-2" style="display:none;" href="#topic-2">✪</a></h1>
+<div onmouseout="$('#link-17').hide()" onmouseover="$('#link-17').show()" id="17" class="comment"><span class="name">Gregg Kellogg</span>:  Discusses JSON-LD-star <a id="link-17" style="display:none;" href="#17">✪</a></div>
+<div onmouseout="$('#link-18').hide()" onmouseover="$('#link-18').show()" id="18" class="comment"><span class="name">Anatoly Scherbakov</span>:  What is the difference between JSON-LD reified reified station and normal RDF. <a id="link-18" style="display:none;" href="#18">✪</a></div>
+<div class="information">Benjamin Young is scribing.</div>
+<div onmouseout="$('#link-19').hide()" onmouseover="$('#link-19').show()" id="19" class="comment"><span class="name">Gregg Kellogg</span>:  Reifiers let you talk about triples without them having to be part of the data model <a id="link-19" style="display:none;" href="#19">✪</a></div>
+<div class="comment-continuation">... they can also be used with named graphs</div>
+<div class="comment-continuation">... the form looks similar, but the semantics are differen</div>
+<div onmouseout="$('#link-20').hide()" onmouseover="$('#link-20').show()" id="20" class="comment"><span class="name">Anatoly Scherbakov</span>:  I think I have read that reifiers are a problem because you can&apos;t reason on them <a id="link-20" style="display:none;" href="#20">✪</a></div>
+<div class="comment-continuation">... so what&apos;s the point of defining them?</div>
+<div onmouseout="$('#link-21').hide()" onmouseover="$('#link-21').show()" id="21" class="comment"><span class="name">Gregg Kellogg</span>:  Reified statements in RDF 1.1 are different than in RDF 1.2 <a id="link-21" style="display:none;" href="#21">✪</a></div>
+<div class="comment-continuation">... in RDF 1.1 they were really only for RDF/XML</div>
+<div class="comment-continuation">... in RDF 1.2 they are more atomic and they are resources in themselves</div>
+<div class="comment-continuation">... they are useful</div>
+<div onmouseout="$('#link-22').hide()" onmouseover="$('#link-22').show()" id="22" class="comment"><span class="name">Ted Thibodeau Jr.</span>:  In the classical sense, where reification is done by declaring subject, predicate, object on an identified Thing <a id="link-22" style="display:none;" href="#22">✪</a></div>
+<div class="comment-continuation">... it&apos;s overly verbose and painful to do</div>
+<div class="comment-continuation">... RDF 1.2 (fka RDF-star) you can write the triple</div>
+<div class="comment-continuation">... and simultaneously have it be in the graph and annotate it, or have it alongside the graph and annotate it.</div>
+<div onmouseout="$('#link-23').hide()" onmouseover="$('#link-23').show()" id="23" class="comment"><span class="name">Anatoly Scherbakov</span>:  Yeah, I&apos;ve wondered how easy this will be to explain <a id="link-23" style="display:none;" href="#23">✪</a></div>
+<div class="comment-continuation">... even if you have named graphs it might happen that you have them because they came from different sources</div>
+<div class="comment-continuation">... and it&apos;s easy to get into problems when you use an OWL reasoner</div>
+<div class="comment-continuation">... because they all come from different sources and may conflict</div>
+<div class="comment-continuation">... do you think that will be solved in RDF 1.2?</div>
+<div onmouseout="$('#link-24').hide()" onmouseover="$('#link-24').show()" id="24" class="comment"><span class="name">Ted Thibodeau Jr.</span>:  It may be solved over time. <a id="link-24" style="display:none;" href="#24">✪</a></div>
+<div class="comment-continuation">... right now it comes down to your processor and SPARQL store</div>
+<div class="comment-continuation">... and how you scope your query</div>
+<div class="comment-continuation">... it&apos;s definitely a problem that comes up</div>
+<div class="comment-continuation">... depending on how you populate your store</div>
+<div class="comment-continuation">... We have a thing called the Spounger</div>
+<div class="comment-continuation">... it populates a graph named for the source (and possibly the time stamp when you consumed them)</div>
+<div class="comment-continuation">... things change over time, so that&apos;s important also</div>
+<div onmouseout="$('#link-25').hide()" onmouseover="$('#link-25').show()" id="25" class="comment"><span class="name">Pierre-Antoine Champin</span>:  To compliment...what&apos;s an OWL reasoner to do? <a id="link-25" style="display:none;" href="#25">✪</a></div>
+<div class="comment-continuation">... it doesn&apos;t say anything about datasets</div>
+<div class="comment-continuation">... when datasets were added to RDF 1.1 they had been around in SPARQL for awhile</div>
+<div class="comment-continuation">... they&apos;d been used for all kinds of things</div>
+<div class="comment-continuation">... so standardizing it then would have broken other use cases</div>
+<div class="comment-continuation">... the name may be used for different things</div>
+<div class="comment-continuation">... quoted triples (aka triple terms) we can now define proper semantics for that</div>
+<div class="comment-continuation">... SPARQL and OWL would be updated via different WGs which don&apos;t exist yet</div>
+<div onmouseout="$('#link-26').hide()" onmouseover="$('#link-26').show()" id="26" class="comment"><span class="name">Anatoly Scherbakov</span>:  Thanks. I&apos;d love to see what&apos;s happening there and maybe take part <a id="link-26" style="display:none;" href="#26">✪</a></div>
+<div class="comment-continuation">... but I have minimal understanding of descriptions logic on which OWL is based</div>
+<div class="comment-continuation">... but I&apos;d love to help as I like RDFS and OWL</div>
+<div onmouseout="$('#link-27').hide()" onmouseover="$('#link-27').show()" id="27" class="comment"><span class="name">Gregg Kellogg</span>:  There is a hope SPARQL, OWL, etc. will be updated, but we will need a WG <a id="link-27" style="display:none;" href="#27">✪</a></div>
+<div class="comment-continuation">... also tools like SHACL may get a new WG</div>
+<div class="comment-continuation">... and it would use triple terms</div>
+<div class="comment-continuation">... there is a charter circling for that</div>
+<div onmouseout="$('#link-28').hide()" onmouseover="$('#link-28').show()" id="28" class="comment"><span class="name">Anatoly Scherbakov</span>:  But SHACL is validating a shape <a id="link-28" style="display:none;" href="#28">✪</a></div>
+<div class="comment-continuation">... OWL doesn&apos;t care, it&apos;ll infer anything it can</div>
+<div onmouseout="$('#link-29').hide()" onmouseover="$('#link-29').show()" id="29" class="comment"><span class="name">Ted Thibodeau Jr.</span>:  Right. different, but they connect <a id="link-29" style="display:none;" href="#29">✪</a></div>
+<div onmouseout="$('#link-30').hide()" onmouseover="$('#link-30').show()" id="30" class="comment"><span class="name">Gregg Kellogg</span>:  OWL can be used for cardinality restrictions <a id="link-30" style="display:none;" href="#30">✪</a></div>
+<div onmouseout="$('#link-31').hide()" onmouseover="$('#link-31').show()" id="31" class="comment"><span class="name">Pierre-Antoine Champin</span>:  I will have to disagree, gkellogg <a id="link-31" style="display:none;" href="#31">✪</a></div>
+<div class="comment-continuation">... cardinality constraints aren&apos;t helpful with the shape of the graph</div>
+<div class="comment-continuation">... if you say one must only have 2 parents, and then use OWL to say they can only have 1</div>
+<div class="comment-continuation">... doesn&apos;t do what you want</div>
+<div class="comment-continuation">... it can be used for validity constraints...a bit</div>
+<div class="comment-continuation">... SHACL actually can be used as an alternative to OWL for reasoning</div>
+<div class="comment-continuation">... one work item in the proposed SHACL WG is SHACL Rules</div>
+<div class="comment-continuation">... so it&apos;s starting to grow beyond shape validation</div>
+<div class="comment-continuation">... the shape can be used at the head of the rule</div>
+<div onmouseout="$('#link-32').hide()" onmouseover="$('#link-32').show()" id="32" class="comment"><span class="name">Gregg Kellogg</span>:  Is that a SPIN derivative? <a id="link-32" style="display:none;" href="#32">✪</a></div>
+<div onmouseout="$('#link-33').hide()" onmouseover="$('#link-33').show()" id="33" class="comment"><span class="name">Pierre-Antoine Champin</span>:  I don&apos;t know <a id="link-33" style="display:none;" href="#33">✪</a></div>
+<div class="comment-continuation">... there have been some experiments, though, so it&apos;s going into the WG recharter.</div>
+<div onmouseout="$('#link-34').hide()" onmouseover="$('#link-34').show()" id="34" class="comment"><span class="name">Gregg Kellogg</span>:  Yeah. OWL is basically too obscure now <a id="link-34" style="display:none;" href="#34">✪</a></div>
+<div class="comment-continuation">... and SHACL is kind of taking over</div>
+<div onmouseout="$('#link-35').hide()" onmouseover="$('#link-35').show()" id="35" class="comment"><span class="name">Anatoly Scherbakov</span>:  Yes, OWL is hard to debug...and needs tools <a id="link-35" style="display:none;" href="#35">✪</a></div>
+<div class="comment-continuation">... at the modern level of modern IDEs</div>
+<div class="comment-continuation">... and it&apos;s had it&apos;s own controversies</div>
+<div class="comment-continuation">... like how much of the graph one imports when reasoning.</div>
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