Brigmedic Rework

[minus1over12]

While working on updates to the contraband classifications for various entities, I ran across the brigmedic equipment, and with it the brief existence of the role in SS14. The role was well intended when added in by @PuroSlavKing, but removed due to unmitigated abuse by players. The goal of this proposal is to figure out how to mitigate the problems so that the role can exist in a state that works well for game balance.

I have started off with a summary of what has happened so far with the role, and some of the ideas put out so far to fix it using comments from @moonheart08, @SEMoslaw, @Skyedra, and @Nutjob.

Input from players who main medical, sec, or lawyer would be incredibly helpful and appreciated in getting this to work.

[PuroSlavKing]

Yep, that's me 🤗

[Aisu9]

There is unfortunately no use in putting this job back, Brigmedic had EVERYTHING they could ever need in their starting locker but they STILL raided medical and goes as far as unwrenching medical vends or emptying them before doctor could ever gear up. being mainly a player issue it cannot be dealt with with mechanical changes.

[ArtisticRoomba]

Overall a good idea, however as a security main I have issues with distrust and desired role abandonment stemming from greater desires.

[ArtisticRoomba]

One of the problems I have with having the brigmedic be an entirely civilian based role is the potential for this role to become an antagonist.

The brigmedic will be commonly assisting security in times of dire need. If antagonists play into this and turn right when security needs them most, people will be extremely distrustful of the brigmedic with due time.

IMO this role shouldn't be eligible to roll antagonist, if it's tied into security work this much. Brigmedic should spawn in security and be a part of security, participate in meetings, get to know the department, etc.

I do agree that they shouldn't be carrying cuffs or batons at all. They shouldn't be doing security job. Thus, you need to give them equipment that encourages the push into being a true medic rather than a secoff. Belt filled with medical equipment for example, that doesn't except cuffs or a baton, like what the medical department gets.

[ArtisticRoomba]

You say they aren't secmedics, but in the next 3/4ths of the paragraph you give precise examples when their role turns into being a secmedic. I do agree that they should stay in the brig though barring these circumstances. They shouldn't be running around making arrests (although in low pop hours, I can see this happening all day every day, and this will be normal when people start allowing it to happen).

The main issue is brigmedics finding every way to abandon their post in the brig and buddy up. These issues should be listed and a possible way to avoid it cited.

[ArtisticRoomba]

Very good idea. Giving them their free hardsuit roundstart wasn't a good idea to begin with.

[Aisu9]

ALTHO many talked in design discussion about allowing brigmedic back in the form of job change from medical.
So if the brigmedic should ever be back, it should be a medical job slot(still with the perk of not being able to roll antagonist because they are still part of security), not entirely part of security and as such shouldn't be allowed to use security equipment.

[minus1over12]

There is unfortunately no use in putting this job back, Brigmedic had EVERYTHING they could ever need in their starting locker but they STILL raided medical and goes as far as unwrenching medical vends or emptying them before doctor could ever gear up. being mainly a player issue it cannot be dealt with with mechanical changes.

Would mapping a medical vend in the brig med area work? Could we encourage the CMO to charge brigmedics with theft for removing equipment without consent?

I saw some people point out that removing medical access from brigmed would help but originally did not understand why, knowing this issue happened helps put context to those requests. If mapping in medvends doesn't work, removing medical access probably would, since medvends need med access. The brigmedic technically would not need the access anyway, since going to medical would require "brigmedicloosing."

Overall a good idea, however as a security main I have issues with distrust and desired role abandonment stemming from greater desires.

The previous implementation had brigmedics mindshielded and antag immune. I can add in a desire to keep those properties to the proposal in order for the brigmedic to be trustable to the security crew.

Brigmedic should spawn in security and be a part of security, participate in meetings, get to know the department, etc.

I would intend for brigmedic to spawn in security, as anywhere else makes no sense for their job. They will have sec comms, and as such would hear about any meetings; it would be up to individual roleplay on if the brigmedic should actually be let into meetings or not, but their antag immunity would mean there is reduced harm to including them. Since their job requires hanging out in the brig, they would have opportunities to get to know the warden, any members of security or command hanging out in the brig, and even prisoners during medical care for them.

You say they aren't secmedics, but in the next 3/4ths of the paragraph you give precise examples when their role turns into being a secmedic. I do agree that they should stay in the brig though barring these circumstances. They shouldn't be running around making arrests (although in low pop hours, I can see this happening all day every day, and this will be normal when people start allowing it to happen).

I should couple the emergency case less with the base case in the proposal; I think separating them out might help convey the idea I want.

The main issue is brigmedics finding every way to abandon their post in the brig and buddy up. These issues should be listed and a possible way to avoid it cited.

Abandoning roles is a rule issue (see Roleplay Rule 12), but since (at least on Wizard's Den) the admin team is in a weakened state, my current best solution would be to make it well known to the security department that brigmedicloosing is in most cases equivalent to wardenloosing and should be punished in character for happening outside of emergencies. We also could have warden playtime be a requirement for brigmedic while the role is new, to help make sure the players getting it understand that some roles require staying in one place.

So if the brigmedic should ever be back, it should be a medical job slot

I agree, and the proposal captures this. Security would be permitted to arrest brigmedics for having lethals and such, identically to how they can arrest anyone else in medical for possession of contraband.

Thank you all for the feedback so far, I will work on getting these details into the draft.

[Aisu9]

Would mapping a medical vend in the brig med area work? Could we encourage the CMO to charge brigmedics with theft for removing equipment without consent?

i could work but you will end up in the situation where ANY security officer will just raid it, CMO charging for crime don't tend to stick through because security player are often protecting each others allowing everyone to commit minor or medium problems without any payback i cannot assist on this end of the problem.

[minus1over12]

i could work but you will end up in the situation where ANY security officer will just raid it,

Unless I remember wrong, medical vending machines require medical access. A security officer can't loot it without hacking it.

[Aisu9]

i could work but you will end up in the situation where ANY security officer will just raid it,

Unless I remember wrong, medical vending machines require medical access. A security officer can't loot it without hacking it.

they can hack it and ask the AI to turn off the access reader.

[felineace]

asked for input, medic main (though admittedly little time in sec), here's my 2c: Brigmedic should 100% be eligible to roll for antag

The short answer why is because lawyer can. Im not going to completely present this as 1:1 parity, as brigmedic gets accesses to TWO departments as well as having more of a reason to be interacting with downed sec, but its closer then you would imagine. I would personally argue that lawyers have access to both medical and brig anyway since 99/100 times, medical has their doors emergency accessed anyway, and a lawyer dragging a crit officer can just as much argue that they were dragging them to safety as much as a brigmedic cannot justify stripping a officers belt off.

On top of this, the argument of brigmedics powerful position for an antag is a moot point when its been established that role benefits are part of the deal as rolling antag, there was a period of time where atmos techs got less TC for the same argument, and was subsequently removed for the same reason im presenting

So enough of the downsides, moreso onto why it SHOULD have antag roll. The simple answer is that a HOS/Warden is immensely less likely to provide leniency to someone who has the potential to turn against them, even moreso with people who already have proximity with them. Again, referencing lawyers, Sec on average will not allow them to possess security restricted gear, and those that do run the risk of providing an antag with weapons and equipment. Even further, lawyers are typically more closely monitored then other crew for having the privileges they have. I see no reason why brigmedic wouldn't get similar treatment.

Another big reason in favor of antag status is simple: Role parity, currently the only roles that are antag exempt are Security and Command, even if we wanted to break parity for brigmedics unique position, this parity clearly exists in the minds of players, and despite the "medical" label on the job, if they work in brig, talk with officers, and wear the reds, chances are they'll get treated like sec.

Also, on the note of brigmed stealing supplies, Personally i think medical has changed a fair amount since it was removed, given the topical doafter nerf, the addition of advanced brutes/chems, changes to medicals loadout (bottles mostly), and other minor or not minor things i cant remember, i think it would be worth giving it a shot to see how brigmedic and proper medical interact before hard-lining how to curb the practice, if we DID want to curb the practice though, we could experiment with taking away brigmeds medical access (brigmed rooms IIRC should have brig access). As i said prior, 99/100 times medical is emergency accessed anyway so it shouldn't hinder them too much (as well as serving yet another argument against taking away their access in the first place since, ya know, anyone can just walk in and drink the jugs anyway)

[EthanQix]

I think no amount of tweaking can make brigmedic not a terrible role design. SS14 is a game about player and department interactions, and having their own personal medic removes the need for sec to interact with medbay ever.

Every problem listed in this thread is completely fixed by not having brigmedic at all :

• No brigmedic means they can't steal medbay supplies
• No brigmedic means there's no sec medic twiddling their thumbs while medbay is swamped
• If sec needs medical help on site, they can just request a medic like any other department. Usually sec requests are considered high priority.
• About the brigmedic antag status, HoS can just ask CMO (yay roleplay) to permanently dispatch a medic to sec. This medic may or may not be an antag but that's the risk you take bringing a civilian into security.

[K-Dynamic]

I just want brigmed so sec doesn't have an excuse for letting prisoners rot, as well as helping warden process shitters

[Aisu9]

I just want brigmed so sec doesn't have an excuse for letting prisoners rot, as well as helping warden process shitters

First thing, security can call for medical assistance(aka CMO in worst case scenario) if they don't and just as you say let prisoner rot, then you should probably Ahelp this behaviour as it is not permitted on wizden.
Second thing, brigmedic's duty is ONLY to care for security staff, not being a security officer/warden with medical supplies.

[Aisu9]

I think no amount of tweaking can make brigmedic not a terrible role design. SS14 is a game about player and department interactions, and having their own personal medic removes the need for sec to interact with medbay ever.

Every problem listed in this thread is completely fixed by not having brigmedic at all :

* No brigmedic means they can't steal medbay supplies

* No brigmedic means there's no sec medic twiddling their thumbs while medbay is swamped

* If sec needs medical help on site, they can just request a medic like any other department. Usually sec requests are considered high priority.

* About the brigmedic antag status, HoS can just ask CMO (yay roleplay) to permanently dispatch a medic to sec. This medic may or may not be an antag but that's the risk you take bringing a civilian into security.

i knew using SS13 as a base is seen as not good on wizden, but brigmedic on 13 have the obligation to help medical if they are swamped, at least on the server i played back then.
brigmedic usually bad, just like blueshield(i do hope admins did something about the blueshield rising problem i spotted a few month ago, if they are not allow it is not to allow any security member to become blueshield just because ANY command member got assaulted)

[minus1over12]

Players needing to solve problems with allocation of resources between roles is already something that the other departments have to deal with. Science needs to make decisions on what machines, gadgets, and borg modules they make, since they can only get finite materials from supply. Botany only has so many hydroponics trays, so they need to decide on the ratio of food to make for chemistry, chefs, and cargo. Cargo has to decide on which order requests to accept or reject, because they have a budget that limits how much they can buy. Supply has to decide who to give what ores salvagers mine, because salvage can only dig so quickly. Security has to figure out who gets what gear during warops, because even with supply working in overdrive, they can only put together so many materials to put into the seclathe.

Even medical doctors could run into the issue. If something happens to chem and cargo can't get a hold of topicals, doctors need to make decisions on who to treat and how much of an injury should be treated. Do they treat security officers to handle threats, or do they treat command to provide leadership?

In the event that genetics and virology (#332) eventually get into the game, medical would need to figure out the resource allocation issue between its roles anyway. Crew dies if they can't have wounds treated, but they also die when deadly diseases can't be treated. Both subdepartments need resources to operate, but how do you decide who gets what amount?

The resource allocation issue is something that is here to stay (otherwise why nerf frezon prices or remove the Reclaimer?). If it's causing players to commit theft or vandalism (especially if security department players are doing it), then in my opinion the issue is wider than a single role proposal.

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having their own personal medic removes the need for sec to interact with medbay ever.

Sec still has to respond to crime reports at medbay. If medbay is significantly closer than the brig and a security player is lethally bleeding out, the player would probably use the standard medbay. The brigmedic needs to talk with the rest of the department about resource allocation.

While you are right about the overall amount of medbay interaction, this would put medical right inside their workplace, forcing them to be around a representative of the medical department more.

brigmedic's duty is ONLY to care for security staff

Read the "Roleplay Responsibilities" of the current proposal draft.

[K-Dynamic]

First thing, security can call for medical assistance(aka CMO in worst case scenario) if they don't and just as you say let prisoner rot, then you should probably Ahelp this behaviour as it is not permitted on wizden.

I thought we were trying to reduce the number of ahelps, a brigmed or dedicated doctor spawn in sec medbay would help with this.

Second thing, brigmedic's duty is ONLY to care for security staff, not being a security officer/warden with medical supplies.

This'll depend if brigmed is strictly just a civilian or ends up getting some sec duties. Or if escapees try fucking up the brigmed.

[Aisu9]

First thing, security can call for medical assistance(aka CMO in worst case scenario) if they don't and just as you say let prisoner rot, then you should probably Ahelp this behaviour as it is not permitted on wizden.

I thought we were trying to reduce the number of ahelps, a brigmed or dedicated doctor spawn in sec medbay would help with this.

Second thing, brigmedic's duty is ONLY to care for security staff, not being a security officer/warden with medical supplies.

This'll depend if brigmed is strictly just a civilian or ends up getting some sec duties. Or if escapees try fucking up the brigmed.

or..... security gets it's shit together and do what they must do for once and call for a doctor instead of watching a prisoner die and slowly rot away.
Brigmed is also extremely bad for player interaction and forces security to powergame in more ways that you can think. refusing any interaction with medical because there could be an antag among them.

[HolySSSS]

The role should be restricted by game mechanics of complex injuries and lack of round-start instruments in brig to treat them.
Then brigmedic will bandaid a person and decide to send the person to medbay as needed, nothing more. It won't feel powerful.

Please wait with Brigmedic's return until Newmed will be implemented.

[minus1over12]

The role should be restricted by game mechanics of complex injuries and lack of round-start instruments in brig to treat them. Then brigmedic will bandaid a person and decide to send the person to medbay as needed, nothing more. It won't feel powerful.

I agree with limiting ability to treat complex injuries, but #175 hasn't seen any activity since March.