Security K9 unit ghost role

[JustinWinningham]

First draft of Security K9 ghost role proposition

[Cojoke-dot]

So how this works is thats it's a security Remi who can search people faster? The new job is just a secoff with a pet then correct? The K9 dog would be considered a familiar then, would the ghost role be focused on an item or the K9 person?

Sounds cool I guess, the sniffing could definitely be broken with how it's implemented. Would it detect contraband, chemicals, or explosives? Could it smell stuff in a storage implant? At the very minimum it should take about 10 seconds for the dog to sniff so people can react and it's not just constant contra checks on green.

[JustinWinningham]

So how this works is thats it's a security Remi who can search people faster? The new job is just a secoff with a pet then correct? The K9 dog would be considered a familiar then, would the ghost role be focused on an item or the K9 person?

Sounds cool I guess, the sniffing could definitely be broken with how it's implemented. Would it detect contraband, chemicals, or explosives? Could it smell stuff in a storage implant? At the very minimum it should take about 10 seconds for the dog to sniff so people can react and it's not just constant contra checks on green.

I asked people a few times and generally people thought it would be more appropriate to be a ghost role instead of a full job. But yes you would act like a department level familiar - or attached to a particular secoff. The ghost could spawn as an activation off a K9 handler one time use item similar to syndiecats or just as a regular random mob.

I hard agree that it could be broken, the sniffing would take time just like stripping to prevent abuse. My initial proposal would be for it to ONLY detect explosives, with things like drugs / reagents added later on if the base concept proved successful.

[NoElkaTheGod]

You mentioned it being able to sniff food. I think it would be funny, if food took priority over everything else. That way you can carry a steak around, so that K9 would not be able to detect any explosives or whatever you have.

Also consider K9 with cogni.

[SlamBamActionman]

I went into this proposal sceptical because any buff to Security is of course a nerf to antags, and as AI has shown being caught via monitoring is a fairly boring. But I do think your implementation might work due to a combination of factors:

• I would definitely go with the smell option 2; having a passive ability that can detect antag activity might become annoying, so making it an active action allows other players to react.
• A lack of radio or ability to restrain makes the K9 unable to effectively act solo. It becomes more of an assisting tool that goes alongside a SecOff. This is the necessary downside required to make the K9 balanced.

I can't speak directly to the proposed number values; movement speed is very important in this game so I probably wouldn't go for more than 115% speed. I am not sure if the bite should induce slow in the target; might be better to have it deal major stam damage instead (there's a property to increase the multiplier of stam damage from damage dealt, used by stuff like the Truncheon), but then again inducing slow might be more balanced against enemies like Nukies.

I'm not sure about it being a role that becomes available progressively through the round. Perhaps just one roundstart is enough.

Overall I find the proposal interesting and would love to see it playtested.

[Errant-4]

Note, I don't think it should be called K9, because while naturally Sec will always have connotations to police, that is a parallel that we have been intentionally trying to avoid on multiple occasions, such as by making them red rather than blue. Afaik they are supposed to be closer to mall security but with (more) guns. We could come up with some way funnier name for the role, or perhaps just giving it a specific name, which could also enforce that there should not be more than one of them, if even that.

An alternative to stun or stamina damage on the bite could be a latch-on ability. This would essentially make the secdog as if it was dragged by the target (possibly also blocking a hand?), who can't let go. The target is slowed by this. The dog would not be able to bite while latched on, making this a somewhat risky proposition, as the target could just start punching them to get them to let go. Although that too is a risky proposition, because then the dog can just opt to let go and start biting instead.
Since the dog is the one being moved while latched on, this can't be used to control, detain or significantly harass, only to help someone else catch up to the target.

[Errant-4]

We had a bunch of discussion about this, here is my attempt to summarise the first round of feedback from various people, hopefully with only minimal bias from me

[Errant-4]

Lower health is not strictly necessary, particularly when they will be wearing armor anyway. Keep them at standard health and then we can tune their survivability by their armor

[Errant-4]

Speed was the most contentius part, there is high concern about the utility of their speed in combat, and how annoying it would be. Some ways for them to gain temporary speed boosts were considered but we would rather just go with standard speed, first. however, to aid with them still being effective at chases, they can be noslip, and see the ability proposed at the combat section

An additional counter to them, which will make them markedly distinct from the slipping meta, but without a speed boost would not be mandatory to prepare for, when one is likely to be chased by them, is that secdogs are gluttonous: if they step on food, they cannot resist starting to eat it, and being made immobile for 2 seconds (probably the same check should apply as to slippables, this should not trigger if the food was still in flight)

[Errant-4]

There was no clear consensus here, but as you noted, the ability to either track footprints or detect bombs could be extremely powerful and perhaps more punishing to traitors than reasonable.
A less disruptive but still useful ability could be to detect corpses and (large concentrations of?) blood within range, with a mechanism similar to anomaly locators - the dog sniffing faster and faster.
This would also mean that blood can be used as a diversion/chaff (since both return the same "sensor reading"), and keeping the station clean becomes more important to sec

[Errant-4]

No stun, tackle or stamina damage. These have very significant combat applications, and historically they have been very disruptive.
However, we would be interested in something like this: a short-range pounce ability primarily designed for chases. The ability can be used to execute a ~2 tile pounce. If it connects with a mob, the dog "bites onto" the mob, essentially being dragged from then-on. This slows down the target as if they were dragging, but does not occupy their hand. The pounce should have a long cooldown or failing to hit a target should be punished with some sort of movement penalty such as slowdown/stun so it can't just be used to dash around all the time

Thus, this ability could be used to close the distance to a fleeing target if you are already close, and cause slowdown on them, allowing everyone else to catch up. In this state, the dog would be unable to bite, so the target has the option of starting to punch the dog until it lets go, but... is that wise, when this will probably cause the dog to let go and start biting back? Likewise, the dog has to choose how long to hold on and when to start attacking/disengage. Being dragged after the target would also, ironically, serve to shield them from shots coming from pursuers

(This ability would be a not insignificant thing to code, but probably worth investigating even without the pounce part)

[BramvanZijp]

What if being effected by it also did some damage on successful connection, and more importantly, while under the effect of the ability, taking certain actions (Moving/running, etc.) causes the mob to take damage and/or increase bleed stacks? Given that if a dog has you in its teeth, attempts to pull away, swing the limb, kick back, etc., would probably result in further injuries due to causing severe movement of the very sharp teeth currently clamped into your skin. (Would also be cool if this reduced gun accuracy and/or increased the length of certain do-after bars, perhaps with certain stimulants or sedatives reducing/removing this effect, but thats probably overdoing it.)

Would also be a cool balance concept since theyll have to either do major damage to the pupper to force it to stand down (I feel like if they get stamcritted or regular critted the effect would end), cooperate and stop moving, or continue to flee and face the very painful consequences.

(The same concept why if somebody has a bladed weapon currently stuck in them, an EMTs best bet is typically to secure it in place. Removing it unplugs the hole resulting in blood gushing out, but having it move around causes massive internal injuries, I feel like the simular risk of injury would apply with resisting/moving against a dog bite.)

[Errant-4]

I did not find mention of this elswhere in the doc, is this a dog whistle that no one else can hear?

[JustinWinningham]

was referred to as alert bark in other areas.

[Errant-4]

But you have that in the next line